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Posts: 70
Feb 3 07 10:20 PM
Quote:How does it happen that the guys who want more of them dead get to pose as the defenders of the troops?
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Feb 3 07 10:55 PM
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Feb 3 07 11:28 PM
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Feb 4 07 12:04 AM
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Feb 4 07 12:12 AM
Feb 4 07 12:19 AM
Posts: 1871
Feb 4 07 6:26 AM
Quote:nmuse, perhaps you can't laugh because you realize that the troops would be better off if we'd listen to Fonda and not your Dear Leader.
Feb 4 07 9:40 AM
Feb 4 07 12:46 PM
Feb 4 07 1:59 PM
Feb 4 07 4:45 PM
Quote:char: "Iowan, 3000 Americans are dead because Bush did not take the advice of people like Jane Fonda. That's not funny."
Feb 4 07 5:10 PM
Feb 4 07 5:48 PM
Quote:iowan15: "And untold thousands of South Vietnamese (and Cambodians and Laotians) are dead because the US government DID 'take the advice of people like Jane Fonda' thirty years ago."char: "This is dead wrong. We have had a thorough airing of Cambodia on GZ previously; the killing fields were an eventual result of our destabilizing the Sihanouk regime. The US killed most of the Vietnamese and Laotians by escalating its involvement and upping the firepower repeatedly. What were we doing there in the first place? If our guys couldn't beat their guys, that should have been that. Two million Vietnamese and 58,000 Americans had to die because the "peaceniks" were not listened to, but Johnson and McNamara were. It's totally bogus to claim that Jane Fonda ordered the withdrawal of US forces anyway. Nixon did, and was not even a fan."
Quote:iowan15: "Untold thousands of American troops who did come home from Vietnam were treated with disdain and contempt by 'people like Jane Fonda'."char: "I question that charge. The right wing libel machine constantly alleges spitting incidents and the like, but I never saw any."
Quote:char: "I and my fellow Vietnam era protestors recognized that those guys were sent there to do a job, and were not freelancing. It's the same in Iraq. It is not the fault of the troops that their leaders made extremely poor decisions."
Quote:iowan15: "American POWs languished in North Vietnamese prison camps while Ms. Fonda was giving her 'advice' that the North Vietnamese were not the monsters they were being made out to be and laughing it up with North Vietnamese anti-aircraft units."char: "Fonda has apologized for her foolishness."
Quote:char: "McNamara has apologized for his too."
Quote:char: "Fonda's mistakes did not kill anyone;"
Quote:char: "McNamara's killed hundreds of thousands. (The North Vietnamese were hardly monsters. If they were, then what were we? It was, after all, their country we were bombing.)"
Quote:iowan15: "Jane Fonda squandered her right to be taken seriously a long time ago, though I see that she's still an icon of yours."char: "Not really. Someone here on the right used her name in another lame attempt to smear her and the left, and I went with it to point out that her prescriptions were in every case better for US troops than those of your icons Nixon and Bush."
Quote:char: "You guys never re-examine your prejudices concerning Fonda or "peaceniks", so a sober reassessment of what we advocate is beyond you and you revert to old stereotypes, true and not-so-true, rather than engage the central point."
Quote:char: "That is that the US military leadership (insofar as they are free to speak), the people of the US, the CIA, world opinion, the Iraqi people, and soon the US Congress are all on record as opposing this surge and in favor of beginning withdrawal from Iraq forthwith."
Quote:char: "However, Bush and a dwindling corps of dead-enders is willing to kill a few hundred more US troops if it might present a slightly higher chance that they can be proven not so wrong about Iraq. Then these people have the gall to claim to be the ones who support the troops. It's ridiculous--always was--and is not at all honest or admirable."
Quote:char: "It is you guys who spits on the troops in the way that counts: cheering on their death and dismemberment."
Quote:char: "You've rationalized this to yourselves somehow, even as the occupation has worn on and on and the invasion has been shown to have been a tragic error. That's fine for you, but people are dying over there. You could help stop that, but you don't, and you crab at those who are trying to stop it. It's just weird.
Feb 5 07 11:06 AM
Feb 5 07 1:54 PM
Quote:iowan15: "Of course Jane Fonda didn't order any withdrawal. She had no authority to do so. But she was anti-war and, eventually, the anti-war position of 'people like Jane Fonda' prevailed. Presumably, that saved the lives of many American soldiers who likely would have been killed had the US not pulled out. The South Vietnamese, on the other hand, didn't fare so well."char: "They weren't faring so well when we were there, Iowan. In fact, far more Vietnamese, North and South, died while we were fighting them than after we left."
Quote:char: "Don't blame Fonda for that. She's no genius, but she knew it was a mistake to go, and a mistake to stay. It benefitted no one but a few politicians and contractors."
Quote:iowan15: "Question it to your heart's content. What you saw or didn't see is not the determining factor."char: "Right. The determining factor is the convenient myths you prefer to believe."
Quote:possible
Quote:iowan15: "Good for you. I'm happy to hear that you had "We Support the Troops' bumper stickers and t-shirts available at the rallies."char: "They were there, and signs too."
Quote:char: "Also a lot of veterans, and some speakers who were currently serving. This isn't about bumper stickers, though; it's about avoiding more senseless deaths."
Quote:iowan15: "I don't see any good reason to take [Fonda or McNamara] seriously when it comes to foreign policy and/or military issues."char: "But President AWOL, who has been spectacularly wrong nearly every step of the way in Iraq, deserves the benefit of every doubt? I don't think so."
Quote:iowan15: "I'm sure the familes of the hundreds of thousands of South Vietnamese who perished at the hands of the North Vietnamese after the US withdrawal take great comfort in that thought."char: "You just admitted that Fonda had nothing to do with Nixon's decisions."
Quote:char: "And those ARVN and others who died--and I'm not sure where your figures come from--would have died whenever we left, as leave we had to."
Quote:char: "And if we'd stayed longer, even more would have died in that interim. So you see, there is simply no way that you can make a rational case that the antiwar position cost more lives than the prowar position. Obviously, it was exactly the opposite."
Quote:iowan15: "Fonda was clear that there as no mistreatment of POWs by the NV and all such claims were propoganda. Talk to John McCain about his captors."char: "Fonda was simply wrong."
Quote:char: "However, were US POWs treated worse than captured NVA or VC? I sincerely doubt that."
Quote:char: "McCain is a big man and has recognized what happened, and forgiven his captors and spearheaded (with Kerry, another Vietnam vet) normalization of relations with Vietnam. He was, after all, bombing them when he was captured."
Quote:char: "You want monsters?"
Quote:char: "Look at the religious fanatics in Iraq. They would not keep US POWs as the Vietnamese did."
Quote:iowan15: "What is there to 're-examine'?"char: "For you, nothing. That would be fatal to your worldview."
Quote:iowan15: "What is Jane Fonda saying today that is different from her 'advice' of 30 years ago? In what significant ways have her positions changed?"char: "That's the point. She was right, but the hawks of that era advocated perpetuating a doomed military conflict founded on a poor understanding of strategic imperatives."
Quote:char: "After we left, the only "dominoes" that fell were the ones we tipped over ourselves in Laos and Cambodia."
Quote:char: "It was all for nothing, and we and they'd have been better off if we'd pulled out sooner. You never learned that lesson; you just can't admit it even to yourselves."
Quote:char: "It's the same in Iraq. You won't re-examine your own assumptions and are thus unable to re-examine the advice given you by the antiwar protestors."
Quote:iowan15: "I have no idea what the Iraqi people want."char: "Yes you do, because you saw the same poll I did after I called your attention to it. Most want us gone, and a majority think it's a dandy idea to kill American troops."
Quote:iowan15: "As I've said elsewhere, I'd be in favor of having a referendum and vote by the Iraqis on the issue of continued US presence."char: "So demand it. Why would you be willing to have Americans die for a country that may not even want us there?"
Quote:iowan15: "If the Iraqis vote in favor of the US leaving, then I think we should begin a withdrawal from Iraq."char: "But you prefer not to know."
Quote:iowan15: "And if the Congress was really serious about their opposition to the surge, they'd deny funding for it."char: "I agree. That may happen, though if it were put to a vote today it would lose."
Quote:iowan15: "With respect, that's about the silliest bit of tripe I've ever seen you post. And that's no small feat!"char: "Oh, I've posted some truly silly things, but that wasn't one of them. It's dead accurate. Guys are being shipped home in coffins because a bunch of stubborn men don't want to admit they made a mistake."
Quote:iowan15: "Then all that is necessary for your position to prevail is to convince your leaders in Congress to defund the war. No money, no troop surge in Iraq."char: "I'm working on it."
Quote:iowan15: "The US Congress is now under the leadership of 'people like Jane Fonda'."char: "I wish. Hillary Clinton supported the war, for instance, as did a whole bunch of others. Even many of those who have seen the light won't defund the surge."
Quote:iowan15: "Tell 'em to get to work, char. Defund this thing NOW."char: "Can I count on your support?"
Quote:iowan15: "After all, that's what the American people want, that's what Jacques Chirac wants, that's what the CIA wants, right?"char: "This is the first time I've seen you so open about your contempt for what the American people want."
Quote:char: "Maybe the first step to health is to admit you have a problem."
Quote:char: "By the way, a package will be winging its way to you from the Capitol mailroom soon. Wear its contents in good health."
Feb 5 07 2:43 PM
Quote:Debunking a spitting imageBy Jerry Lembcke | April 30, 2005STORIES ABOUT spat-upon Vietnam veterans are like mercury: Smash one and six more appear. It's hard to say where they come from. For a book I wrote in 1998 I looked back to the time when the spit was supposedly flying, the late 1960s and early 1970s. I found nothing. No news reports or even claims that someone was being spat on.What I did find is that around 1980, scores of Vietnam-generation men were saying they were greeted by spitters when they came home from Vietnam. There is an element of urban legend in the stories in that their point of origin in time and place is obscure, and, yet, they have very similar details. The story told by the man who spat on Jane Fonda at a book signing in Kansas City recently is typical. Michael Smith said he came back through Los Angeles airport where ''people were lined up to spit on us."Like many stories of the spat-upon veteran genre, Smith's lacks credulity. GIs landed at military airbases, not civilian airports, and protesters could not have gotten onto the bases and anywhere near deplaning troops. There may have been exceptions, of course, but in those cases how would protesters have known in advance that a plane was being diverted to a civilian site? And even then, returnees would have been immediately bused to nearby military installations and processed for reassignment or discharge.The exaggerations in Smith's story are characteristic of those told by others. ''Most Vietnam veterans were spat on when we came back," he said. That's not true. A 1971 Harris poll conducted for the Veterans Administration found over 90 percent of Vietnam veterans reporting a friendly homecoming. Far from spitting on veterans, the antiwar movement welcomed them into its ranks and thousands of veterans joined the opposition to the war.The persistence of spat-upon Vietnam veteran stories suggests that they continue to fill a need in American culture. The image of spat-upon veterans is the icon through which many people remember the loss of the war, the centerpiece of a betrayal narrative that understands the war to have been lost because of treason on the home front. Jane Fonda's noisiest detractors insist she should have been prosecuted for giving aid and comfort to the enemy, in conformity with the law of the land.
Posts: 845
Feb 5 07 5:22 PM
Feb 5 07 9:26 PM
Feb 5 07 10:56 PM
Quote:iowan15: "Well, no doubt there were lots of Vietnamese were dying while the fighting was going on. That's sorta the point of fighting, isn't it?"char: "Just to kill people?"
Quote:char: "I'm beginning to understand your position on Iraq better."
Quote:char: "At the time, there were other reasons advanced for the war, but if people dying is what you were after, then I guess it was Mission Accomplished all the way."
Quote:iowan15: "Since the North Vietnamese were the enemy, I'm less concerned about the number of casualties they incurred than I am concerned about the losses of our allies."char: "You might forgive the Vietnamese for considering themselves human."
Quote:iowan15: "I don't know the ration of South Vietnamese who lost their lives in combat versus those who lost their lives in the purges that followed our withdrawal."char: "I just tried to look it up, and it's a mess. Everyone has different estimates. The war dead seem to be from two to four times the postwar dead for the South, but it's hard to know which figures to put credence into. The main point is that however many postwar deaths there were, they were going to happen no matter when we left."
Quote:char: "If anything, dragging the war out hardened the attitudes of the eventual victors and contributed to more deaths. In any scenario other than some of the more fanciful that include the fantasy of South Vietnamese victory, it is obvious that the earlier we'd left, the fewer of every nationality would have died."
Quote:iowan15: "And her 'advice' should be listened to why?"char: "It would have saved American lives."
Quote:iowan15: "...all those retruning veterans who claimed that these 'convenient myths' actually occurred are liars and that all the reports of such occurrences are in error, but I don't see any reason to suppose that."char: "Educate yourselfchar cited an article: "Debunking a spitting imageBy Jerry Lembcke | April 30, 2005"
Quote:iowan15: "Most people want to avoid senseless deaths. But, of course, in the minds of most of the anti-war crowd, nothing says 'I support the troops' better than proclaiming that the deaths of their comrades in arms and the cause for which they fight are 'senseless'."char: "Perpetuating the fantasy that it makes sense to kill more Americans in Iraq is far worse."
Quote:iowan15: "And since when did you become concerned about taking 'right' steps in Iraq? I thought you were of the opinion that there is no such thing as a 'right step' in Iraq since the whole thing is a necon boondoggle."char: "The right step now is to withdraw our military."
Quote:iowan15: "If the North Vietnamese had been defeated, I think that the deaths of South Vietnamese at the hands of the North Vietnamese after the war would have been less." char: "Well, that wasn't ever going to happen. The strongest nation in the world threw a half-million men at them, and bombed the hell out of them, and they still were not beaten. The ARVN was sure not going to do it."
Quote:iowan15: "You doubt that. I'm not sure why that's important, but I'll grant that you doubt that."char: "You were trying to make a moral argument, and now you've backed off from it. Fine."
Quote:iowan15: "So her complaints, and that of the anti-war movement of the day, had more to do with 'strategy'? How does linking arms with the enemy and simultaneuosly denouncing one's own country bring about military victories, strategically-speaking?"char: "I'm asking you to think, Iowan. Is that too much?"
Quote:char: "The point is that the war served NO PURPOSE. It would have been better to withdraw."
Quote:iowan15: "Since we don't know whether or not we and they'd have been better off (whatever that vague phrase means), what is there to learn?" char: "I'm making the noncontroversial statement that the US would have been better off to have lost fewer troops in Vietnam, and you can't even agree with that. You are unreachable."
Quote:iowan15: "The only sort of 'poll' I'm interested in is a vote. If things were determined by 'polls', then John Kerry would be president today. He's not."char: "And what are the chances of such a vote? You're just wilfully ignorant on this point."
Quote:iowan15: "That's the purpose of a refendum, to find that out."char: "The referendum you don't seem to want enough to demand it?"
Quote:iowan15: "The Iraqi government doesn't appear to think a precipitous withdrawal would make us and them better off."char: "They don't want a surge either. They want a gradual withdrawal starting now. But neither you nor Bush cares what the Iraqis want."
Quote:char: "Is it any wonder the Iraqis are thoroughly sick of this occupation and what it's brought?"
Quote:iowan15: "Which means that today Congress is not serious about their opposition to the surge." char: "Not serious enough for me, no. They sure don't support it, though."
Quote:iowan15: "Atta boy! Maybe you can hire Fonda as a consultant."char: "Unlike your side, we don't require payment. Trying to do the right thing is enough."
Quote:iowan15: "I don't think the American people want the war defunded. In that respect, I think I'm right in line with what the American people want."char: "Wow, that was evasive enough for anyone. Americans want a reduction of troop levels, not an increase. The rate at which we withdraw is up for discussion, but Bush is going the wrong way. Are you with Bush or the American people on this?"
Quote:iowan15: "Splendid! My government tax dollars at work?"char: "Not the postage, of course; I'm paying that. But since we're govt employees and sending you stuff you asked for (and some you didn't) at no charge, I suppose you could say it is your tax dollars at work. In Washington, we live to serve the public. (Or is that service the public?)"
Feb 6 07 9:35 AM
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