Hi char,

Quote:
iowan15: "Of course Jane Fonda didn't order any withdrawal. She had no authority to do so. But she was anti-war and, eventually, the anti-war position of 'people like Jane Fonda' prevailed. Presumably, that saved the lives of many American soldiers who likely would have been killed had the US not pulled out. The South Vietnamese, on the other hand, didn't fare so well."

char: "They weren't faring so well when we were there, Iowan. In fact, far more Vietnamese, North and South, died while we were fighting them than after we left."


Well, no doubt there were lots of Vietnamese were dying while the fighting was going on. That's sorta the point of fighting, isn't it? Since the North Vietnamese were the enemy, I'm less concerned about the number of casualties they incurred than I am concerned about the losses of our allies. I don't know the ration of South Vietnamese who lost their lives in combat versus those who lost their lives in the purges that followed our withdrawal.

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char: "Don't blame Fonda for that. She's no genius, but she knew it was a mistake to go, and a mistake to stay. It benefitted no one but a few politicians and contractors."


But she didn't know it was a mistake to yuck it up with North Vietnamese troops, she didn't know it was a mistake to help them in their propoganda efforts, and she didn't know that she was mistaken about the treatment of US POWs. And her 'advice' should be listened to why?

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iowan15: "Question it to your heart's content. What you saw or didn't see is not the determining factor."

char: "Right. The determining factor is the convenient myths you prefer to believe."


Well, I suppose it's
Quote:
possible
that all those retruning veterans who claimed that these 'convenient myths' actually occurred are liars and that all the reports of such occurrences are in error, but I don't see any reason to suppose that.

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iowan15: "Good for you. I'm happy to hear that you had "We Support the Troops' bumper stickers and t-shirts available at the rallies."

char: "They were there, and signs too."


I saw lots of signs produced by the anti-war protesters. I was at the dedication of the Air Force Museum in Dayton and President Nixon gave the keynote addess. My aunt and uncle lived right across the street from the entrance gate to the museum so we walked across to attend. I don't recall any signs that expressed any support for US troops, although there were a couple that expressed the belief that they were 'murderers'.

Quote:
char: "Also a lot of veterans, and some speakers who were currently serving. This isn't about bumper stickers, though; it's about avoiding more senseless deaths."


Most people want to avoid senseless deaths. But, of course, in the minds of most of the anti-war crowd, nothing says 'I support the troops' better than proclaiming that the deaths of their comrades in arms and the cause for which they fight are 'senseless'.

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iowan15: "I don't see any good reason to take [Fonda or McNamara] seriously when it comes to foreign policy and/or military issues."

char: "But President AWOL, who has been spectacularly wrong nearly every step of the way in Iraq, deserves the benefit of every doubt? I don't think so."


Who said that? And since when did you become concerned about taking 'right' steps in Iraq? I thought you were of the opinion that there is no such thing as a 'right step' in Iraq since the whole thing is a necon boondoggle.

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iowan15: "I'm sure the familes of the hundreds of thousands of South Vietnamese who perished at the hands of the North Vietnamese after the US withdrawal take great comfort in that thought."

char: "You just admitted that Fonda had nothing to do with Nixon's decisions."


No, that's not what I said.

Quote:
char: "And those ARVN and others who died--and I'm not sure where your figures come from--would have died whenever we left, as leave we had to."


If the North Vietnamese had been defeated, I think that the deaths of South Vietnamese at the hands of the North Vietnamese after the war would have been less.

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char: "And if we'd stayed longer, even more would have died in that interim. So you see, there is simply no way that you can make a rational case that the antiwar position cost more lives than the prowar position. Obviously, it was exactly the opposite."


We don't know how many South Vietnamese would have died should the US have stayed until they defeated the North Vietnamese. It appears that millions fled from Vietnam (no hard numbers on how many died while fleeing) while maybe a million were placed in re-education camps.

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iowan15: "Fonda was clear that there as no mistreatment of POWs by the NV and all such claims were propoganda. Talk to John McCain about his captors."

char: "Fonda was simply wrong."


'Simply wrong'? Another inconsequential 'mistake'?

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char: "However, were US POWs treated worse than captured NVA or VC? I sincerely doubt that."


OK. You doubt that. I'm not sure why that's important, but I'll grant that you doubt that.

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char: "McCain is a big man and has recognized what happened, and forgiven his captors and spearheaded (with Kerry, another Vietnam vet) normalization of relations with Vietnam. He was, after all, bombing them when he was captured."


Yes, I admire McCain for that as well. But, from Fonda's perspective, there was nothing to forgive since, according to her, reports of POW mistreatment by the NV were erroneous.

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char: "You want monsters?"


No, I don't want monsters.

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char: "Look at the religious fanatics in Iraq. They would not keep US POWs as the Vietnamese did."


Yeah, US POWs held by the NV have no idea how lucky they were.

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iowan15: "What is there to 're-examine'?"

char: "For you, nothing. That would be fatal to your worldview."


OK. You can't think of anything that should be re-examined. Let's move on.

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iowan15: "What is Jane Fonda saying today that is different from her 'advice' of 30 years ago? In what significant ways have her positions changed?"

char: "That's the point. She was right, but the hawks of that era advocated perpetuating a doomed military conflict founded on a poor understanding of strategic imperatives."


So her complaints, and that of the anti-war movement of the day, had more to do with 'strategy'? How does linking arms with the enemy and simultaneuosly denouncing one's own country bring about military victories, strategically-speaking?

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char: "After we left, the only "dominoes" that fell were the ones we tipped over ourselves in Laos and Cambodia."


OK.

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char: "It was all for nothing, and we and they'd have been better off if we'd pulled out sooner. You never learned that lesson; you just can't admit it even to yourselves."


Since we don't know whether or not we and they'd have been better off (whatever that vague phrase means), what is there to learn?

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char: "It's the same in Iraq. You won't re-examine your own assumptions and are thus unable to re-examine the advice given you by the antiwar protestors."


That's an equal opportunity indictment, char.

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iowan15: "I have no idea what the Iraqi people want."

char: "Yes you do, because you saw the same poll I did after I called your attention to it. Most want us gone, and a majority think it's a dandy idea to kill American troops."


The only sort of 'poll' I'm interested in is a vote. If things were determined by 'polls', then John Kerry would be president today. He's not.

Quote:
iowan15: "As I've said elsewhere, I'd be in favor of having a referendum and vote by the Iraqis on the issue of continued US presence."

char: "So demand it. Why would you be willing to have Americans die for a country that may not even want us there?"


That's the purpose of a refendum, to find that out. The Iraqi government doesn't appear to think a precipitous withdrawal would make us and them better off.

Quote:
iowan15: "If the Iraqis vote in favor of the US leaving, then I think we should begin a withdrawal from Iraq."

char: "But you prefer not to know."


That conclusion follows from nothing I've said, stated, or implied. You may want to 're-examine' that. :)

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iowan15: "And if the Congress was really serious about their opposition to the surge, they'd deny funding for it."

char: "I agree. That may happen, though if it were put to a vote today it would lose."


Which means that today Congress is not serious about their opposition to the surge.

Quote:
iowan15: "With respect, that's about the silliest bit of tripe I've ever seen you post. And that's no small feat!"

char: "Oh, I've posted some truly silly things, but that wasn't one of them. It's dead accurate. Guys are being shipped home in coffins because a bunch of stubborn men don't want to admit they made a mistake."


Your tripe becomes no less silly with repetition.

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iowan15: "Then all that is necessary for your position to prevail is to convince your leaders in Congress to defund the war. No money, no troop surge in Iraq."

char: "I'm working on it."


Atta boy! Maybe you can hire Fonda as a consultant.

Quote:
iowan15: "The US Congress is now under the leadership of 'people like Jane Fonda'."

char: "I wish. Hillary Clinton supported the war, for instance, as did a whole bunch of others. Even many of those who have seen the light won't defund the surge."


So much for 'leadership'.

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iowan15: "Tell 'em to get to work, char. Defund this thing NOW."

char: "Can I count on your support?"


I support your right to work to effect the changes you desire.

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iowan15: "After all, that's what the American people want, that's what Jacques Chirac wants, that's what the CIA wants, right?"

char: "This is the first time I've seen you so open about your contempt for what the American people want."


I don't think the American people want the war defunded. In that respect, I think I'm right in line with what the American people want.

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char: "Maybe the first step to health is to admit you have a problem."


Maybe. Pity Jane Fonda's feet are still both firmly glued to the floor.

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char: "By the way, a package will be winging its way to you from the Capitol mailroom soon. Wear its contents in good health."


Splendid! My government tax dollars at work? :)

later, bud. iowan15